I GIVE HIM A SORDID ROLLICKING BOOST:

MAXIMO :
these notebooks are very raw stuff

marx often seems to chew and rechew material
n times too many
but just as you're about to say....
boink he bursts forward again

the one finished product we have kapital vol I
really is not like this

as a very profound and deadly accurate exegeterer of the trier tiger

let me be the firs to say...

max you're like one of those grizzzlys that catch salmon

you look a bit odd
you may miss a few big ones
as they sail past

but you're gettin a good feed

---------------

then a very windy regurge spouts from an early comment cage
its my old sub hegelian friend of a friend
jch

"jch
pinky is on siesta brake
--so i'm forced to take the field
in his armour ---

"apparently Marx thought
.. through a series of crises
driven by overproduction/working-class underconsumption ..."

okay so far

"...a point would be reached ..."

a point ???

this i fear must be taken figuratively
or pluraly
--the expropriators getting expropriated
turns out
to become with time
a case of visa versa
--and the cycle is apparently renewable
thru non essential sublations ---

the prole- rev-state proves
but a formal conquest of social power--

its d of p
becomes
d of pb
and from there
the road back to
full
p to the big Bz
is
fairly obviously coverable in a canter--

or so class clash history
of the last century seems willing to show us
----I won't go into what marx meant
by formal subsumption vs real subs -ing

--- wake up pinky.. wake up ---

but obviously repeated 'practice' last century of
"proles rule"

MAY HAVE PROVED
in your words :

".., of course, there seem to be some impassible paradoxes riddling ..."

the class act of the Class act
--- at least when test fired those first
few times
--errrr---
came out...
like ahhhh...
well dude it weren't a dud but...

t'were riddled with "meat paradoxes"
of the ouching
till blood do us part
kind

---none the less--

seems now
as the expropriators strike back
story line seems
ready to cave in

" the system" comes round and round again

---and in that light ---

don't we seem to be approaching once again
"the point"(on a higher level ..ta ta )
where

"... the development of ... increasingly consolidated technical/administrative means of production.. "

this time
thru the lovely flying trans nat global free for all
what with all their
joint production
of super profits and de industrial amerikas
once again proves to be

"... an uneconomic constraint on the further potential development of the "forces of production"

but is it
a this stage only constraint ???
can it self sublate once again

survive yet another round ???

---if so
and when or even whether or not lady god cleo will
'require.' a nother corporate state knock down ---

"... a fundamental redistribution and reorganization of productive ...means"

no weeble today can rightly

----------------

max writes

"The idea of an overall profit rate declining is less obvious."

not to everyone js mill and
frank ramsey included

recall

this is a rent a scarcity
a rentier comp
not the profit of enterprise

lord knows we can smack away
rentier returns on investment

where they gonna hide ???

hint
forsocial structure and motor thinkers everywhere:

imagine the real rentier return
deep in negative territory

and yet market prices that command
nice returns to tech prog

yup innovation's reward is still big deal time

still readily availible and seriously positive .....

the reg rig incubatory for this is not hard to tack together
u can try it right there in your mind at home ....

--------------

the point i think decisive here:

the aspect of profit return rate
we look at for serious reasons

is the flux and flop factor
especially
as it triggers episodic crises

this is the big cahooona

not some deeply imbedded
socio-cosmic
parameter with a negative sign

not
some law of ultimo direction..... ie down of the
system wide
steady state profit rate

we only care

if the system can ressurect itself
or not

if it keeps crashing
and the crashes propell the class struggle forward to
only partial sublations
as doc bluster calls em
then what ???

damn the secular drop drop drop of the steady state
real rate of
the general return on capital

who's ever gonna
see that with all this gyration
even without technical progress
its hard to imagine this system solving itself
once and for all

hell the general rates not at the bottom of an n dimensional bowl

its on a knofe's edge anyway ...

but i digress

sum up :

unless the decline can be shown
to be ready to suffocate
the exploitation of labor
once and for all....

and it can't

then the system's raison d'etre
is not headed for
a once and for all dead zone

the system will not
automatically
by the mere alteration of burger "social reality" morph burger swords
into prole plow shares

the fuckers will need to be zapped
from out side
their class boundary
no matter how differently drawn
by the march and morphs of events

and zapped prolly
repeatedly

by the assembled
exploited multitude from beneath

-------------

but for todays driving

for guys
wirth their noses
to the grind stone

for slacker policy grunts like max

"who f in cares
if the general rate like the sky itself...is falling "

its coming down too slow to notice

okay so its like saying climate change includes
very gradual
increases
in average wind speeds on earth

fine

but i'll look for the changes in the strength
of hurricanes and tornados anyway
and if they get much more severe
because of the average wind speed increase
that's great

well
there's no one yet who hasa linked a decline in the general profit rate with worse crisis

---------------
" activities of stevedores, shop clerks and lawyers"

two out of three maybe if the clerk is a pure cashier
the use value of the activity is "real" enough
if it's of service to the potential purchaser
in regards to either or of buy or pass up
the commodity at hand

the stevedore puts it at hand the clerk may well help the selection/decision process

all use vale addded tothe purchaser purchasing for use

(not to confuse this with purchasing for resale where the bundle of related activities
is mixed in different proportions between use value prserving and commercial considerastions irrelevent to the use value as evaluated by ultimate purchaser for use
doc bluster | 02.13.07
jch
nice haber-mush fed ttroika harnessing
of the great ones multitasking oeuvre
u write:
"it's "riddled with impassible paradoxes", by which I mostly meant the bifurcation in Marx' own thinking between its sober rational-critical side and its chiliastic antinomian side, by which he overburdens the "proletariat" with the "election" of its historical role as the "subject-oject identity" by which the riddle of History is to be resolved/redeemed. There's a whole lot of Hegelian conceptual conjuring/laying on of hands going on there which needs to be disentangled."

lovely verbal construct john at least for this back alley
of the collectively produced over soul

impassable paradox ???
that be what
a no mobius escape line ??

i must conceed if you take any system cut it in half conceptually
and label each half with names that imply wild mutual incompatiblity

zingo

you seem plausible
but if the labels really characterize left hegelian spook festers
and
not the master of prole hell fire welll....

but ....at any rate

the disentangling u seek
may well exist since his note books between 1856 and 1874 are all about just that ...

------------
there u are max
once agan lording it over us maoist moonshiners

is respectability recognition reconciliation
that road to contentment
u sub conciously always wanted to fellow travel ???

--------------

jch ...u sub hegelian swine

as usual nice comment chain

hint to the wise but bored
ltv
should be handled only by us fire eaters

--------------

jch:

example of why ltv cooking is not for the great unannointed

"whereas its exact distribution does not effect the determination of production prices"

ouch ... couldn't be more off base

but neither could it matter less
for non ltv truth seekers

stick with stiglitz i always say

unless your heart is pure and on full moon nights ....

---------- upshot

seeing some one very bright like u
getting burned like that
only hurts the sensitized empath not the agent his/her self

like most great and glorious magicians
we who work constantly around
the open flames of ltv
are
the only ones made to feel pain
when it gets mis used

so much the worsed for us

may the labor value be with you my friend
----------------

stilted language ????

jargon jumping academic minny mouses speak
is better ???

my my are we
trying to bulge our cod piece

call cleaver the lord of taylor
pinky
--------

here's johnny hegel seed at the planting

------------------
slink o' pink:

Yes, we swine are legion,
ready to be cast over a cliff,- (into the deep waters?).

But I make no such great claims
for such powers of persuasion.

Is the LV "dollars" account wrong
i.e.

that value is conserved despite or even because
of the lowering of real prices
until
of course, it isn't?

I make no claim to understand all
the technical ins-and-outs of LTV, TSS and the like,
nor assess the scope and conditions
of their applicability.

That's more than a bit beyond
my ken, budget, time-constraints and patience.

But it's profits that theoretically get equalized across sectors,
though varying temporally between firms and sectors,
while "surplus value" is "expressed" as
rents, interest, and nowadays who-knows-what-else.

But if you'd care to straighten me out
on the micro part,
do, pray tell.

Yeah, Marx needs to be read
with and against Hegel,

just as Hegel can not be remotely understood
without Kant,

and there's a lot of unresolved questions/problems of interpretation
connected up with his incompletely presented,
perhaps inadequately worked- out
"critique" of Hegel and its remaining mortgages.
Or so at least
I think I learned
while daydreaming in school uncounted moons ago

I take the line that the basic concerns with "alienation" were carried through continuously
from his youthful "enthusiasm",
but considerablely complicated
by his full-fledged deployment of political economy,

and the the "philosophy of praxis"
remains central to his conception,
for which "Capital" provides
the projectively constructed stage-setting.

And, yeah, there are "paradoxes" to consider,

the "proletariat", the least-educated,
most put-upon class,
whose lives are most completely reified
as commodity-labor
and most thoroughly fragmented and alienated
through their subjection to the production processes

(re)producing capital/surplus value,
(something he rather plagently describes)
are nonetheless supposed to become
precisely through their reduction to bare-bones life
whereby they have nothing to lose but their chains (which is almost Hobbesian)
the universal class

(there's a considerable dosage of straight Enlightenment thinking there
not just with the appeal
to unconditional or unmediated
"universality"

but through the construction
of an order of nature
as the "ground" for penetrating
and criticizing social relations)

- whereby they are somehow supposed to come
to consciousness of
and overcome the totality of
the process
from the vantage point of their collective class-consciousness
"for itself",-

(yeah, that notion of collective consciousness/collective "subject"
and its "universal" standpoint
owes a lot to Hegelian "Geist"
which, though supra-personal and collective
as well as transhistorical
somehow bears the attributes
of reflective self-consciousness)

which translates, -
(through a rhetoric of motives?)

into direct action,

(transformative because laboring?)

Add to that,
the whole monster-machine
operates by converting freedom into necessity
all in the name of "freedom"

a problematic of "free will vs. necessity"
that goes back to Kant's antinomy

(and past him, through long ages of Lutheran melancholy
all the way back to Augustine)

an antinomy which Marx at once confutes
and re-produces
in his own way
as per all those endless discussions
about determinism vs. voluntarism
in "revolutionary" theory.

But Marx most of all
does not want to issue any "categorical imperative"

fully buying into Hegel's criticism of the Kantian separation
of the "is"
from the mere "ought"

whereby any ethical life
can only be anchored in the actuality
of social recognitions

inspite of the distorted/alienated status
of those recognitions
under the reproductive imperative of capitalism

so he conjures his conceptual identifications of "subject" and "object"

through all the dialectical permutations
of their differences
to produces a materialist dialectic
of future history

whereby,
the demise of the old
is identical to
the birth-pangs of the new order

as a matter of inevitability
the worse becomes the better
what is most low changes place
with what is most high

the last become first

and satire and prophecy
are fully reconciled

So, yeah, I'd say that there are some paradoxes
and impassibilites to be thought about in this

whole "schematism",
which, diagnostically, have to do
with the fact that dialectical "contradictions"
can only be resolved
by being sublated to a higher
more inclusive conceptual level
else they remain caught up
in the paradox of conflicting categorial "necessities"
and of being true and false at the same time

But that is a conceptual "necessity"
rooted in the "identity" of subject and object

thought and being
not necessarily an attribute of reality per se

So most of us can not manage
to be rapturously elevated
into the ether of The Concept
for too long
since us mouth-breathers
can only bear so much
"pure actuality".

But,
at the risk of incurring some further imprecations
in Farsi,

I've had the vague notion
for a while that those famous contradictions
of capitalism are re-emerging
after the dream of dogmatic slumber under Keynes vs. Comecon

but this time
in a new technologized,
highly technically mediated form,
- (is that the higher level ta ta?),

while, in the mean time,
the pervasive instrumentalization of "reason"
has become reflexive,
re-forming its categories
out of its very tendency
to decompose them.

But, if so,
how would LTV apply to the situation?

Can the categories of labor and capital
be clearly differentiated
and disentangled anymore,

as labor becomes increasing graded by technical endowments
and capital increasingly abstracted from tangible assets?

Can the framework of "Basis und Ueberbau"
still handle the political problem
of the increased interpenetration
of state and economy?

How can money be disentangled from the communicative media
needed for the formation of knowledge
and the coordination/regulation
of collective action?

Cod piece?

Flapping my fish?

Literally, how little you know!

Are you accusing me of answering with purchases e-mail spam?

Or is it "Mission Accomplished"
for high-flying thinkers?

john c. halasz

-----------

i respond...briefly and without addressing substance

--------------
jch

you need no straightening out

you're on the road to truth and wised up -dom

the lvt is a fifth wheel suitable au combat
for the likes of us fedallahs
(or what ever that stashed extra fire worshipping harpooneer on the pequod's name was )

at this point in the process
your brain deserves
one of those rude traffic cop hand signals
that sez in gestures
"just keep movin bub" ......right on past the crash site

---------------

but i ought to answer in detail

but where ???