August 19, 2004
conversation: after scarcity?
Folks, conversation is the most important thing we got. following out converstations, staying faithful to them as new shoots in the garden, is vital important. i got into trouble yesterday for trying to have a conversation with a cop -- more on that later.
here is a conversation I've been having with one of this site's best friends -- eric from Political Graffiti. I think it is an important topic. it starts with a few notes and a link to the weblog of James Howard Kunstler, and goes from there.
-------------
What comes after scarcity?
scar city
scare city
(non-permalink; July 19, 2004 entry)
in a single person, both the "avowed catastrophist" and the "reactionary horse-gut bellower" I was referring to in Machine City.
he dodges the whole question of how to bring about the world he envisions by imagining a catastrophe. this approach can never get out of dreamtime. he essentially acknowledges this be merely "suggesting" that people get ready. there is no way to get ready. therefore, his politics can never become active...
also preparing for a red chef entry called "post-scarcity cooking," deals with the creative motor scarcity offered. how do we continue to innovate when we no longer "need" to? or, really, when the market calls for only the palest possible differentiation, and the top-down structure of kitchen work stifles innovation at every turn?
Posted by Sam at August 19, 2004 06:46 AM
What do you mean no way to get ready?
Kunstler writes:
We have to reorganize commerce in this country on a more local and multi-layered basis. Industrial-strength agriculture based on oil "inputs," and featuring the 3000-mile caesar salad, will not survive. We are going to have to grow more food closer to the places where we live. Giant central schools serviced by yellow bus fleets will soon be history. A cars-and-trucks-only transportation system is going to leave Americans stranded in the near future, and I wouldn't be bullish on commuting forty miles a day.
Alternative fuels are not going to solve these problems, at least not in a way that would allow us to carry on our current program. I wish my fellow ex-hippies and environmentalist friends would give a little less of their time to projects like hybrid vehicles and concentrate instead on the walkable community side of the equation. That is where the big payoff in conservation lies for this nation. It would accomplish three things. It would put the development money where it belongs, in civic environments, including existing towns and cities. It would give us a chance to develop economic systems and relations that had a reasonably sustainable future. And it would provide places worth caring about as an alternative to the demoralizing fiasco of places like the suburban wasteland between Fort Worth and Dallas.
These two paragraphs alone, with their implications, suggest a lot of ways of "getting ready" , for his politics to become active.
--
Posted by: Eric Blair at August 4, 2004 04:33 PM
I didn't mean that he doesn't think that we can get ready -- I just don't think we can. Everything I understand about social change tells me that suggestions, no matter how alarmist their phrasing, cannot possibly accomplish the kind of alterations he wants. It's only a setup for an "I told you so," and one that I don't think will ever come.
This is what I meant by "becoming active" (a phrase I actually abhore as self-serious and pretentious)--lending coherence to a group of people who can actually do something as a result. His shit seems so steeped in cynicism and fatalism that, well, I just don't buy it. It just seems like he's spinning his wheels, defending his turf, and waiting for the apocalypse. That's militia shit, and I think we should leave it well enough alone...
Posted by: sam at August 8, 2004 10:39 PM
sammo this kuntsler is a grape not worth squeeze for its juice
Posted by: pinky at August 9, 2004 10:13 AM
What exactly is "militia shit" about the view that our economy is heavily centered around the creation, maintenance, and furnishing of suburban sprawl, an architecture and lifestyle heavily dependent on imported commodities and automobiles, whose very affordability depends on cheap oil. Is that up for dispute even?
OPEC just announced recently that they are at maximum demand. Whether or not you think Americans can get ready for this future I guess is another matter entirely, but ready or not, here it comes. All things dependent on the price of oil are going to get more and more expensive. Agreed?
Posted by: Eric Blair at August 11, 2004 02:43 AM
I would agree with you that to some degree he dodges the whole question of how to bring about this world he envisions. I mean, he does offer some very broad suggestions here and I would totally agree that they are inadequate. Kunstler is after all a registered Democrat, and though he obviously maintains a healthy distrust of the corporate establishment and its politicians, he still has a noticeable amount of faith in the American democratic institutions themselves to create change. This alone limits the possibilities one can dream of.
That is where I will fault him, in his failure to make a class based analysis of society -- an analysis that is not separated from a daily intervention at the point of production, one that calls for the abolition of state governments. He fails to make an analysis that aims to transform the hierarchal social relations which the suburban architecture facilitates perfectly and instead stops short at just making an extremely reasonable and accurate condemnation of that futureless architecture.
Posted by: Eric Blair at August 11, 2004 03:55 AM
Don't you think that Americans have had tremendous changes in their consumption patterns before? The key questions of social crisis are neatly avoided if you displace them onto oil and lifestyle.
Will there be crises in the future? Of course. Oil might even play a role. But "getting ready for this future" seems like a sad and defensive goal -- compare to "we have a world to win!" This is what I mean by "militia shit."
Posted by: sam at August 11, 2004 04:31 AM
(I wrote that last comment before I read the 3:55 one, in response to the 2:43 one)
Posted by: sam at August 11, 2004 04:36 AM
enter the dragon
kuntsler shall be shot down
and by me !
vide house of paine circa august 21
Posted by: pinky at August 13, 2004 04:44 PM
The end of the cheap oil age, it is definitely coming, there's no maybe about it, will be a major factor in capital's evolution. Whether or not Capitalism can survive the coming crisis is questionable. The system is so fine tuned and dependent on oil that any riot or uprising or terrorist attack in venezuela, russia, or the middle east can send the price of oil up and the economy off the ledge. Check out the most recent edition of Fortune Magazine and keep in mind the demographic. There's a long article about our oil addiction. Even guys who have so far proven themselves delusional about the sustainability of our economy are beginning to panic about this. The good news is based on their proposed solutions, they still appear to be delusional.
The end of oil is the end of *their* world and they know it. If taken advantage of it is the beginning of ours. It is an oppurtunity we can not afford to pass up by joining them in their delusions. That is what I mean by getting ready. Microsoft is already asking people where they want to go today. Machine city is one answer strikingly similar to Ford's.
We need to be asking people what they want to do today instead, because that's not being asked right now... it is being answered. answered by the people who have friends with guns and prisons who have decided the pressing question still should be how to transport human capital from the residential slums to the commercial and industrial slums, where we already know what they'll be doing.
Posted by: e at August 16, 2004 04:03 AM
ouch, man. Machine city == Ford?
I would love to believe the end of their world is right around the corner, but I still believe the chairman: "All things reactionary are the same, they won't fall unless you hit them."
My question is not "what do you want to do" -- I believe we have a long way to go before this is the important question. Indeed, Kunstler's vision of the future rests firmly on this question being taken out of the hands of fat, stupid Americans. He believes in the re-assertion of neccessity, I believe in a simple affirmation of neccessity, and finding out what it allows us to do.
My question, therefore, is "how do we want to relate to each other"? The neccessities are there, but it is true that they must be uncovered and publicly acknowledged. It is only on that basis that this question can be answered.
p.s. what's in the works at Political Graffiti?
Posted by: sam at August 19, 2004 03:35 PM
Hey Sam.
Nothing is in the works really. I messed with Moveabletype so the pages weren't working. It is fixed now. I'll work up a reply to you shortly.
La lotta continua.
Posted by: Eric Blair at August 19, 2004 05:57 PM
Posted by: sam at August 20, 2004 07:08 PM
pinky's take part II
interesting here he points out how Kunstler, far worse than not having a class-based analysis, actually hopes for the re-emergence of a more direct form of hierarchy.
Posted by: sam at August 21, 2004 04:54 PM
He can hope for that all he wants. We'll see him on the field. You know, reading his books which are less about oil and more about the history of urban development... I could see how pinky could make that point about him. In an email conversation I had with Kunstler he wasn't too fond of any of the Socialist ideas I had asked him about. Anyway I'll try and wade through pinky's prose.
Posted by: Eric Blair at August 22, 2004 02:09 AM
don't wade friend wearr a weight belt
sink down to its dirty dark bottom
Posted by: pinky at August 22, 2004 12:07 PM
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