House of Paine

more on migratory matters

    bad max strikes sparks on la migra 




=====================================


max posts:


IT'S MOSTLY GOOD


It's possible to raise a false dichotomy between guest worker programs and legal immigration with permanent citizenship. The former might or might not include some process whereby a worker acquires citizenship. The Senate bills and Bush's proposal have some scope for citizenship. It could be made easy or hard, extended to few or many. It can become a matter of degrees.

The inescapable facts are a) even if you wanted to, you could not deport illegals to any non-trivial extent; b) people are going to want to come here under any plausible scenario, because there is always some place that is worse; c) the economy can absorb any number of new workers, so if they come, it will.

It's inevitable, so relax and enjoy it. Let it be the wedge issue that destroys the Republican Party for a few decades. Seek class solidarity that enables improved labor standards for all.

"The inescapable facts are a) even if you wanted to, you could not deport illegals to any non-trivial extent;"

-----------------------------------------------------------------
comments:

probably true

"b) people are going to want to come here under any plausible scenario, because there is always some place that is worse;"

Mexico is hardly "worse". It's lovely country, full of nice people and beautiful weather.

"c) the economy can absorb any number of new workers, so if they come, it will."

What do you base this on? Any number? 100 million?
 

-----------------------------------------------------------------------max answers ---------
 
  
 Good jobs would leave with or without immigrants. I didn't say immigration would improve the lot of workers here already.

Jerry -- By 'worse' I meant inferior economic opportunities. The economy has always absorbed more labor. More workers mean more consumers, and more consumers mean more jobs. Sometimes the process is not pleasant. It could be managed better and more equitably. In principle -- for all practical purposes -- I don't think there is any limit. Other countries are much denser than the U.S.

Miracle Max | Homepage | 04.12.06 - 8:40 pm | # 

-now comes pinky :

"It's inevitable, so relax and enjoy it."


beautiful  max beautiful ......

i agree keep your shirt on

unless you're about 
to swim  north across the rio grande 


"Let it be the wedge issue 
that destroys the Republican Party 
for a few decades "

not sure i get you here

sure enough theres a split here

a wedge between the  the gop's 
white christian protestant nativists 
and   its exploiter max corporatists 

but what of the donks ????

but hey confidence is kool 

bill haywood always said 

go ahead
bring in the scabs you thumb heads
we'll organize them too 

." Seek class solidarity that enables improved labor standards for all"

  you sound  more like big bill every minute


pinky | 04.12.06 - 9:14 pm | # 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 
another commenter fires off:
 

 Immigration is surely a wedge issue
 for the Republicans. Unfortunately, it's also one for the Democrats. 


 Max, while I'd like to relax and enjoy it, 
unfortunately I have to work harder and harder
 just to maintain my tenuous place in my industry. The next layoff I get will almost certainly be my last from a good-paying job.

.

Max, you're capitulating to the cheap-labor Democrats.

 Even if the Dems ride this wave back into power, I have little faith that they'll do much to turn things around.

sTiVo | 04.12.06 - 9:25 pm | # 

----------------------------------------------------------------------comes me again:----------
 
 stivo

max sez relax and enjoy

you write
"The next layoff I get
 will almost certainly
 be my last from a good-paying job"

so split the diff

sure 
 you'll be   jobless   but surely 
                then  you 'll have time to ....relax 

btw
how does
"improved labor standards "
figure in this 
they get hired cause they can do the job...right ????


thats the standard of the market place

all else is sob sister nanny stuff 

or brass knuckle  restriction and exclusioning 


"Even if the Dems ride this wave back into power,
I have little faith 
that they'll do much to turn things around"

boy you got that right !!!!!!!!!.



 
 max writes:

"The economy has always absorbed more labor"

well no  that's not quite right
  but the rate of undoc unemployment
 does seem to feed back on the in flow 
                                   with lags 

." More workers mean more consumers"

please max this is say's law in overalls 
save the agit prop for the goons 

", and more consumers mean more jobs "

ditto 

" Sometimes the process is not pleasant '

no its always not pleasant
except compared to the real wrold immediate alternatives .




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
stivo resonds to...me -------
 
pinky:

btw
how does
"improved labor standards "
figure in this
they get hired cause they can do the job...right ????



In the high-skill sector,
 you'll sometimes see the immigrant afraid
 to tell the boss that what he's asking is impossible
, whether or not that fear is justified
. He'll go and work his tail off trying
 to do the impossible,
 and in the end, produce garbage.
 Ahh, persistence, it's wonderful.
 But sometimes the boss really 
is full of shit and really is asking the impossible
 - no amount of effort will work.
 In that situation, the compliant worker 
does the boss no favor not to push back.
 But sometimes the boss is so clueless 
(as in Dilbert) he'll value docility over input
 that could help him come up
 with a better plan. 
With more confidence in their right
 to push back (an "improved labor standard"),
 the irrational side of insourcing might be reduced.

sTiVo | 04.12.06 - 11:35 pm | # 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 
 
 now max posts a bigger take: 
 


AM I A "CHEAP LABOR DEMOCRAT"?

Responses somewhat disconnected 
to the comments on the previous post . . .

I don't welcome migration 
that reduces labor standards.
 I concede that it doesn't affect me personally,
 so I can relax in the face of it more than others.
 It provides a lot of competition 
for academic jobs
 that I probably wouldn't get anyway, 
since
 a) I have no interest in writing journal articles,
 and
 b) a lot of these buggers are smarter than me. 


The first issue is what can practically be done 
about it,
 not whether we like it
 or whether it makes anyone's life easier.
 I am skeptical.
More people here have said it's bad
 than have said something can be done about it.
 "Must" does not imply "can."

We do need to have immigration laws 
that are enforced, focused on employers.

----------- ahh a new track ???? -----------


"In this regard, by the way, 
I don't see what's so horrible
 about more fences and walls and border patrols
 who can send the moronic "Minutemen" home"


------- that surprised me 
except if he figures its harmles pyramid building
that creates jobs 
wonder if he thought of my wrinkle
bribe and hire 
the mexicans  themselves to build it 
on their side of the boarder ----------


"If an H1-B visa (which I'm against)"

------------- nasty eh??-------------

" transfers a job from one to another,
 that does not mean the job has left the country"

-------- fair enough
  but lower pay  and sending wages "home"
 reduces effective demand -----


" It means the job is susceptible 
to weak labor standards"

". In-migration does not, cannot destroy U.S. jobs"

-not directly but in directly by lower demand --------.


" It comes back to labor standards,
 which would be a problem in any case. "


--------- ie the lower wages ---------------

"I stand by my point that legalizing workers 
you can't get rid of anyway 
adds to political pressure
 for improved labor standards"


----------- right the old  saw
 you can't legislate compliance 
you gotta enforce it 
and if ya can't ...
but  why not

btw on the earlier point
about  tagging the dirty exploiter 
 that would  only lead to  way more
   drug dealer
 style official corruption 
hit the employer with more potential dutch
he'll spend more
i guess  as this increase
the cost of doing biz
at the margin there oughta be  reduced illegal jobs  --------

-------

On the politics side,
 it's true the Dems are not much better
 from the standpoint of workers theatened
 by immigration. 

But they have a weaker hold on those people
 in the first place, "
----he's dead wrong here according to the polls ----------

"so they have less to lose. 
California offers a template 
for G.O.P. political meltdown"

---how about black on chino conflict max
but here's max resonding to my say's law gambit --------

"Say's Law is one thing. 


-------- it sure as hell is ----------------



"Saying more workers mean more consumers,
 not excluding difficult adjustments along the way 
-- the business cycle, in other words -- 
is not controversial,
 or shouldn't be."

---------- see him twist and wriggle here
 now watch the escape move ---------


 "The principal fallacy in Say's law
 is extending it to the short run"


-------- oh so thats the short run
          ie
a  transitional  interval 
that lasts in this case as
long as wages are reducing
 and the native jobless ness is  not soaked back up 
by effective macro policy 

but here he shows why i love him----------------

his definition of the short run
" before we are all dead"

--------------now he escapes ----------

" I believe bad Gov policy 
founded on inflation obsession 
can thwart Say's Law 
in the long run as well"

--------- see he admits the fed can thwart
 a proper adjustment
all he needs to add is

and of course  seeing as the fed is wall streets bitch
thats precisely
 what will happen in any case ---------------

----------- now we get a lecture ----------

"A fundamental principle of labor movements
 the world over is to restrict the supply of labor
 in hopes of driving up wages"



" This is done by reducing the retirement age,
 by seeking legislation against striker replacement,
 and sometimes by anti-immigration agitation"

----------sloppy but endearing list 
notice these are klass wide non union triumphs --------

" As Dean Baker often notes,
 the professions have their own barriers
 to entry through licensing and other devices". 

---------- but that ain't -----------

"My wife used to do regulatory law 
in the District.
 She once represented hair-weavers
 who were under attack by beauticians. 
It would make a great movie. 
The latter had the regulatory regulations
 to protect their status, 
and argued that their alchemy required expertise
 that should be certified by the Gov. 
The weavers didn't use chemical crap,
 said don't tread on me. Everybody's doing it"

----------that's ' what me worry ' mad  max 
in full costumenot to be a prig
but the  uncincious neolib training bias shines thru here  --------.

"The efficacy of labor supply limitations is one question. 

Another is the practicality of that approach 
applied to immigration.

 A third is the political consequence.
 I think the answers to all of these are contestable"


----------now thats some small word shop
                              hot air eh ???--------------.



"What seems less open to doubt
 is a more birds-eye view 
of U.S. historical experience.
 Waves of immigration in the past
 gave rise to struggles among workers 
-- stoked by employers -- 
for what was perceived 
as a limited number of jobs.
 Perverse mythologies regarding race,
 ethnicity and religion blossomed 
in this setting leaving malign,
 long-lasting effects"

------------okay --------

"Ultimately the number of jobs --
 the 'lump of labor' (sic) -- was not limited"



 ------------ wow 
what about taking
the integral of lower wages 
and higher profits 
and calling that the long run cost

and oh

add the reduced productivity growth associated
with lower wages  higher profits 
              retarding mechanization----------



". Immigrants fought their way into politics
 and fueled the rise of the labor movement"


-----------wait this was legal immigrants here ------------


", which in turn made the country
 a better place in all kinds of ways.
 The old exclusionist-collaborationist
 AFL sort of "business unionism" was swept aside"

-------------------- now thats clever since 
the cio got its chance only when
 thru  laws and depression
   immigration stopped for 20 years -------------


". Labor went from cheap to dear"

". In 1969 the "Woodstock minimum wage" 
of $1.30 was $7.03 in today's dollars"

-----ya ------------

". It did not go downhill 
later because of immigration"


----------- really ??
   but what about
  cheap labor
imports  and  capital flight ---------------

"I did not say it would be fun for everyone.
 But it's where we are"

---------- boy is that a down beat ending -----------


still indulgence and
 affection led me to this comment 

" nice post  houdini 

glad you wiggled out of  the hand cuffs 
in time to escape .....
                    the short run

ie 
the fast filling tank 
 of  bull shit
we all tried to suspend you in


I'll
Say no more     eh ???


-------------------------- 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 ENTER A   SOULFUL THINKER 
 


-------------------------------------------------------
 
 I want to feel that this is mostly good.
 We need a positive vision for this.
 Betsy is right that inward looking denial
 of the suffering of the world is wrong.
 But there are lots of buts and ifs.

Our challenge is to make this mostly good.
 For that we need a plan. Or dumb luck.

There is an assumption 
that formerly illegal immigrants 
will vote Democratic.
 That may be- but they bring a Roman Catholic world view
 that is hostile to much of what liberalism celebrates
 in terms of cultural modernity. 
The equality of women.
 Reproductive freedom.
 Post traditional moral values.

So there may be increased pressure
 for Dems to turn away from cultural issues 
and focus on economic populism.
 That's half right.

Progressives want this to be a progressive issue
. But it may turn out to be 
the conservative-corporate utopia 
of plentiful cheep labor 
willing to work longer and harder
 that those who understand 
we work to live not live to work.

 So far I'm hearing mostly 
platitudes and wishes from the left.
 Magical thinking 
that this will turn the nation towards economic populism.

 But with the 1.5 billion new workers 
crowding into the global economic system 
and 10s of millions of immigrant workers
 coming into our domestic system
 we may just as easily be seeing
 the death of broad based prosperity 
and the return to social darwinism
 of the 19th century.

Complex systems work almost
 as forces of nature- seemingly beyond our control
. I'm not sure if we are smart enough 
to shape these forces
 towards a vision of a humane society.
 But I guess we have to keep trying.
 We need the courage and wisdom 
to bring our best selves and highest values
 to this work

Dale | 04.14.06 - 3:57 am | # 

------------------------------------------------------------------------
me  enters dressed as ass wipe  
--------
 
 dale writes:

"it may turn out to be
the conservative-corporate utopia 
of plentiful cheap labor......."

globe -wise ain't 
it already ????


 as a humanist 
why fret 
whether or not "the cheap labor "
has jobs "here" or "there "
i know

there's the job less citizen left behind 

and to add to this
fright nite
the  boundary  line
  between the trade- able and the non trade-able 
  which 
 carves a  protective trench 
"naturally " around 
local jobs on the " non"  side 

well 
don't it turn out
that 
seems  to be rather rapidly ......
                           imploding 

----------
then  dale you go on to write :

" .... willing to work longer and harder 
than those who understand 
we work to live not live to work "

now this line's mind set 
seems to me
                  odd 

u are putting the motivation 
                  the mental prime mover 
                       for all this "darwinian"
             more .. longer... faster....faster 
right there inside
the migratory jobster's head 
                     not his/her exploiter's 


fact is 
i've gotten thru most of my adult life
assuming 
it was 
the "profit max whip "
that had  most of us 
        speeding  ever more swiftly
                         toward  job tartarus 
                             

oh and i hope i don't detect 
a nasty curl crossing your upper lip
as you tap into la difference
betwixt 
THEIR HOLY RC CHURCH 
and 
YOUR POST TRADITIONAL VALUES 

some might see
a shade dappled prospect rising 
here before them...

but to my jaded eyes 
ehhhh 

after all I'm 
            an attack trained marxist 
not a free thinking humanitarian

pinky | 04.14.06 - 7:56 am | # 

------

dale answers


 
 pinky, I'm just free assocciating
 on my thoughts about immigration.
 I will actually be on the street 
in solidarity with their struggle for recognition
, but some of these contradictions pull at me.

Take the Sandwichman's writings here
 about leisure, work, etc.
 It seems to me a part of living 
in a modestly successful economic society
 is the luxury of free time 
and a relatively tolerable paced work day, etc
. For many, breaks, sociability throughout the work day,
 etc are part of the positive achievments of prosperity.

 It seems to me, part of the motivation 
for hiring immigrant labor 
is the ability to work them at a pace
 and with a discilpline 
that most citizen workers would tend to resist.
 A push back against hard won achiements
 gained by working people.

even an attack trained Marxist 
must recognize the fragile economic and cultural achievments
 we have made in the post WW2 era,
 were real, perhaps fleeting,
 and worth protecting?

I attend social justice events at Catholic Churches.
 Some of our best writers and thinkers 
on pluralistic religion are Roman Catholic-

 I'm thinking John Dominic Crossan,
 Sister Joan Chittister, James Carroll.

 But still, the RC hierarchy is patriarchal,
 against reproductive rights, gay rights.
 Is it a failing of mine to be concerned 
that the majority of our recent immigrants
 may be culturally conservative?

 That, even if they may bring with them
 a motiviation for economic populism
 they may also help create 
a cultural conservative movement 
to negate some of the achievments 
of the past few decades?

I'm a neo-post something or another Marxist myself.

 We have multiple tracks of modernity.
 Economic and cultural to be reductive.
 I do believe that the development
 of post traditional world views 
and moral sensiblities
 is an important part of social progress

. Real progress depends upon
 how we learn to deal with a plurality of worldviews.

 Many Roman Catholics want their religion
 to move towards a more pluralistic theology-praxis.

 But I am concerned about
 the degree of cultural traditionalism
 among our immigrant brothers and sisters.
 I guess I need to get out 
into the world and talk with them.

I took some trainings 
from a Boston based group
 called the Public Conversation Project
. One of the things I took from them 
was the notion of appreciative inquiry.

 Learning to ask and listen 
to questions of genuine interest.
 We often take sides in a conflict,
 assuming and pretending 
that all on our side have the same opinions. 

Well, we often don't.
 But we feel inhibited from asking one another
 these questions of genuine interest
 that show our ambivlence and confusion.

I think the world is getting too complex 
and dangerous to continue 
with assuming that all right thinking folks
 will have the same views 
on important issues.

 We probably don't.
 And we need to learn to have these conversations 
in a context 
where we don't accuse one another
 of deviating from the correct line,
 etc. 
That's much easier to do in person,
 with certain ground rules in place, etc,
 than it is among us virtual citizens 
and immigrants here in the internets.


Dale | 04.14.06 - 1:43 pm | # 

-------

------------notice the eery gentle put down
    at the end

"we need to learn to have these conversations 
in a context 
where we don't accuse one another
 of deviating from the correct line,
 etc. 
That's much easier to do in person,
 with certain ground rules in place, etc,
 than it is among us virtual citizens 
and immigrants here in the internets"


obviously the training has worked well--------------




---------at any rate  
your  unchastened pink plays it soft anyway  -----------------



 
 dale.....nice post 

sincerety is an elixir 
       even for some of uz jaded klass strugglers 

and  i say
" right on there"
         with the internal "complexity"  bit 

ain't that the damn truth ?????

and hey 
seriously

 in this post party era
             of ours

 i dare not 
 play the pharisee

and so to 
          " accuse.."  you
    " of deviating from the correct line "

was hardly my intent 

even if 
on this  amigo migro issue
there still seems to be
 such a   line 
even if its 
      but 
           dimly flickering in my squash