House of Paine

arming the flowers to fight the weeds

  nothin like a red guard
to bite a soft touch radzo
                          in half


check out

my common law son in law:


here he is 
      inside the squared circle
with a   doe ish dandy 

a real hot ranger
   of the dentil floss 
ultra leafy lefff --- tah
==========================================


 flowers vs. weeds 
 
2005-04-12 16:06 
  
do you believe that there is 
any such thing as a weed?


jasonadams 
2005-04-12 21:10 
  
Certainly not 
in the way that
 Maoists,
 Stalinists,
 Leninists,
 fascists 
or liberals 
would use the term......

 I am particularly interested 
in how 'radical pluralism'
 might be possible  .............

the original soviets
               in Russia
 before their massification/Leninization 
are a good example
 of what excites me conceptually


-------- the fellow LIKES TO THOUGHT HOP

ALSO SEEMS
TO see too little detail
AS HE HOPS ABOUT


try sequencing this some 

first the old regime collapsed

viola

this is never the work of a party 

how could it be

maybe some day the stage will arrive where
the end of the old state system 
is indeed the final collapse of a whithered tree 

but for the fore seeable now

the ancoent regimes dis integration
leads on into  a stage 
 when the provo gub
in cadet type hands here 
co exists with the  inchoate soviets 

that is till
a real org
ie 
the bolshi's over throw the provos


and call for

 " all power to the soviets "

have we leninized yet?

is the two party soviet gub 
leninization complet 
or only a borning 


next 

 there's an  election to the con assembly

another threat to soviet rule 

bolshi dispatched 

leninization?



what about the german army?
the treaty ?
was that possible thru radical pluralism?

the left SRs
 opposed the treaty

"fight on" they cried 

 as bold and right as 
that treaty deal was 
would a pluralistic gub  soviet system 
really have the nimbleness
to 
accept 
such a  huge humiliating roll back  ?

now comes civil war 

formation of a red army

the attack of the baby stranglers 

white armies 

the poles

the japs 


the czechs 

the frei korps   

blah blah blah


and we're still 
 2 years from  "bloody kronstadt" ... ------------------


 Re: flowers vs. weeds 
(Anonymous) 
2005-04-13 02:49 
  
 do  you agree 
there is possibly something 
which must be suppressed ?

                      if so then:

a) who if anyone 
           has
    the right to play weeder?

and

b) if someone does

  how
 then  does "Leninization" 
                      have any meaning 
     is it merely
         a personal  moral comment?


 
 Re: flowers vs. weeds 
jasonadams 
2005-04-13 03:16 
  
 look at Mao's words 

------- no better look 
         at his  party's subsequent actions --------------
 
the 'weeds' in his formulation
 were basically whatever disrupted 
the bureaucratic rationality 
of state centralization

-------------------- non sense 
look at the GPCR  you bastid  
was that mao inspired rip roar
    bureaucratic ? ------------------------

  that would include 
not only capitalists,
 the bourgeoisie, etc.,


 but also the so-called 
'infantile Leftists' 
such as those suppressed 
by Lenin at Krondstadt 

--a wild conflation here


the ultra left infants chided
 by V.I .

 were running around 
post war
 western europe 
circa 1919 

 the rebellion 
at the naval base
came later 
              1921 

and to tie either 
to the chicom 
 anti rightest campaign circa 1957  

  boggles me     -------

 as for whether 
this has  moral meaning or not


how do you think 
the insurgent sailors massacred 
there would respond?

 ------------ massacred? 
                     read the facts 
                            my good
                                   but 
                            ignorant child ---------------
 
 Re: flowers vs. weeds 
jasonadams 
2005-04-13 03:21   
Here are two very clear quotes 
that apologists for Lenin/Mao/Stalin 
never seem to quite get
 for what reason I have no idea:

"this dictatorship [of the proletariat]
 itself only constitutes
 the transition 
to the abolition of all classes 
and to a classless society" 

- Marx

--------------- fine quote
 an out line and a goal 

but  no relevance 

call me 
when we arrive at
world wide klasslessness

  klasses don't disappear
   by  abolition  laws ... 
                          we ain't even klose
                                             to klasses being over

look at yourself pal

a completely PB mind machine 

my guess in a few years you'll
be a de facto
       humanistic gliberal yer self  
actualy beyond some
                          red hot air
we all prolly are..-------------------

"As soon as there is no longer any class
 of society 
to be held in subjection;
 as soon as, 
along with class domination 
and the struggle 
for individual existence
 based on the former anarchy of production
 the collisions and excesses 
arising from these 
have also been abolished
 there is nothing more 
to be repressed
 and a special repressive force
 a state
 is no longer necessary".

- Engels
----------- no marxest has
 any problem with this....
the state any state
   is a class  guided 
                   repressive force 

when eventualy
we reach no klasses
then poof
       no state
                   simple  enough fare
                         just  not on todays menu  --------------- 


--------- more to the point
exhibit a:

" based on the former anarchy of production"

   your red hot
worker / producer  council systems 
         sound like 
a new     commie walt  disney version
             of the old
     smithian  a of p to me -------------
 
 Re: flowers vs. weeds 
(Anonymous) 
2005-04-13 08:10 )  
before we leap into "resolved issues"
 this or that evaluation 
of the Krondstat
 as a political litmus test....


why don't we have a discussion?

let me ask as clearly as I can:
 do you believe 
that political suppression 
is ever justified?

because 
if you acknowledge some "ideal case" 
of suppressing capitalist retaliation
 to revolutionary government

 hell, if you believe in 
the concept of revolution itself

there are thorny issues 
that need to be resolved.

 
 Re: flowers vs. weeds 
jasonadams 
2005-04-14 07:40 
  
The 'suppression' 
of the power of capital
 state and other dominations 

--------- pretty twisted up phrase this -----------

by way of radical
 decentralized, pluralistic,
 participatory democracy is

-------- this air burst 
from the quaker oats cannon
tells all don't it ------------------


  justified 

------ ah justice 
    now 
        the higher ground is ours -----------------

 this is a politics 
that Agamben has called 
'means without end'
 and Vaneigem has called 
'revolution of everyday life'

--------- see him rush for the references

marshall his authorities ----------------------


 to me its a politics 
of what Camus would call
 'rebellion' 
or Stirner would call 
'insurrection' 

----- camus and stirner eh?

both doin

very hard manual labor
on my personal very very private
and
 virtual devils island --------------------


contra what  Lenin, Mao and other Marxists 
would call 'revolution'.


-----  a fine contrast up hevels vs power seizures  
success is not the point eh?

better to be wrong then in power ----------
 

 Re: flowers vs. weeds 
(Anonymous) 
2005-04-15 21:15 
  
How differentiate that position 
from liberal pluralism
 with its constant promises 
to unseat dominations 
through participatory democracy?

 
 Re: flowers vs. weeds 
jasonadams 
2005-04-15 23:00   
well for starters 
liberalism is based in 
possessive individualism 
and the private ownership
 of the means of production 
 thats a pretty major difference 
in and of itself, no?

 -----------  but private property
rights
against the state
is the foundation 
of the liberals' liberty

 so whats your foundation ?

the right to vote for the gump of your  choice                             ----------------


 Re: flowers vs. weeds 
(Anonymous) 
2005-04-20 07:59
   
does your pluralistic, 
decentered democracy 
need to defend itself 
as it struggles against 
private ownership?

  if so
 either we mount
 a vigorous collective defense
 or we are left with
 no better defense
 than to appeal 
to the liberal values 
of the bourgeois state
 (for example, the "first amendment"
 protests repeatedly initiated by the I.W.W.)


 
 Re: flowers vs. weeds 
jasonadams 
2005-04-20 08:02 

 
Well I think it has 
the solidarity of everyone
 who doesn't want 
to become wageslaves again

 
------ lok at the record jack
rely on that
and you've bought yerself
 a one way ticket to a massacre ---------------



any private employer
  would have nothing 
to offer them  
since the majority 
of the economy 
would be run by decentralized
 directly democratic councils

------god hell
they guy don't get the point

the fuckin whites will
blow his fuckin DDDC's
  sky fuckin high 
there will be no choice of emplyments ass hole

only a post slaughter frog march back inside 
mr mr's  rebuilt plant gates  ---------------
 
 Re: flowers vs. weeds 
(Anonymous) 
2005-04-22 20:11  
 
 surely this  choice
   can only be possible
 long after the real struggle is over?


at this point

---------with the boss's army 
                    still in the field ---------

your  voluntarist approach 
 is completely inadequate 


------------ precisely -------------


you could say  about feudalism 

"once a yeoman
  who would volunteer 
to go back 
to being  a serf again ?"

------right volunteer

despite yer  personal wishes ------------


 only now
 when  the protracted
 bloody struggles are  over

-----------and feudalism is long gone
and the boss wants wageries not villains --------
        
 does it make any sense
      
 ---------   to speak of "no way i go back " choices here

how silly it is to notice
 
exploiteds 
 can refuse 
whats not forced on
 em by the man
cause the man don't want it anymore  ----------  ---------

 -------------
all real  options
must be faced one by one
    looking forward 
            can be done
          only 
       one step at a time 

      thats  all thats possible---------------

we can never see
 all the way
  to the dark  heart
              of the struggle ahead 
 
  Re: flowers vs. weeds 
jasonadams 
2005-04-22 20:22 
  
Well we obviously have 
quite different views 
on how social change would occur

--------- no you have no idea how it happens bub -----------


 I am not interested 
in 'bloody revolution'
 which would only reinstate
 a new state 

 I want something more worthwhile

  --------  i'll settle for  eden only
yup
i wanna be  
 stateless and pantless 
just like  old adam was

thats the deal for me -------------




  Re: flowers vs. weeds 
(Anonymous) 
2005-04-23 19:48  

 
how do you imagine
 a bloodless change 
in property relations happening
when capitalists have shown 
a total commitment 
to drown any threat
to their dominion 
in a sea of blood?

do you believe 
it will come about 
by martyring ourselves 
and our forces

 or do you hope 
to de-throne capital 
with the power of your ideas?

------------- red guard roll ----------------

 
 Re: flowers vs. weeds 
jasonadams 
2005-04-23 20:59  

i think there are many possibilities

--------- none real of course
none that will ever happen -------------

 consider seattle 1919 
or paris may 1968 for instance 

-------- two gestures toward the future 
    no less but no more ------------


 i am not so naive
 to think there would be
 no violence at all 
in the collectivization 
of the means of production 

------------ thats a relief

despotic inroads we karlists 
call for during the d of p ----------------


 but i also think 
that quite a bit
can be accomplished
 by refusing the idea of an 'end'
 and building a 'revolution of everyday life'

-------- quite a bit of what ?

   koool prefigural stuff
pilot porjects

bean free suppers

collective college dance halls -----------


 while i am not a pacifist
 i do think that non-violence 
should be emphasized 
in any strategy worth considering

--------i see him settling into a self satisfied quietism ---------





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